I don't want to have an argument with you here but not all "prophecies" have been fulfilled. Jesus said the meek will inherit the land. That hasnt happened yet. What about the reference to the Millenial Kingdom in Revelation where Christ rules for 1000 years in peace. That hasn't happened yet either. In Isaiah 32, it talks about The Kingdom of Righteousness. That hasn't happened either yet, as far as I am aware. There are a lot of problems with it all as far as I am concerned. For example, in Revelation, God says the people of the world will curse God because of these pestilences like plagues and sores on their bodies and famines etc. I believe it says the people of the world or the earth. Since it is Satan's people on earth who are causing these things to happen in our time now, and sores on their bodies for example could be yet to come from vaccines etc and diseases like marburg and ebola, and famine is surely on the way as well, are we to think that God and Satan are actually working together to do such harm to the people of the earth? We have to remember as well who compiled the holy bible and how they left so many other teachings of Christ and others out of it. Aren't the ones who did that, the enemies of God? We just have to keep fighting the good fight though brother. No matter what.
And you haven't responded to anything I have said either! Are you angry with yourself about that? Actually, I did point out that there are passages in Revelation where God says the people of the world (earth) will curse God because of these plagues and pestilences ... That is directed at your view that this is all over already and such things were only applicable to Jeruselem. The passages I am referring to refer to the people of the whole world. So in that way I have reinterpreted what you said! Peace!
Am I to infer from your statement, "The symbol of education across the world is the globe, but there are now many who have realised the impossibility of that model and its direct opposition to everything our senses tell us is true every single day of our lives" that you believe the Earth to be flat?
Your senses are also able to show you the shadow of the Earth rising opposite the sunset on any clear evening. They are able to observe the circular shadow of the Earth crossing the Moon during a lunar eclipse, the timing of which can be predicted with great accuracy centuries in advance, using a Sun-centered model of the Solar System. The same model can predict the exact timing of solar eclipses, when the Moon crosses in front of the Sun, far into the future. Where I live, I can see the towers of a distant city rising from the water, just as they should if the water's surface is slightly curved.
Astronomers making careful observations three hundred years ago were able to deduce that the orbits of the planets are ellipses with the Sun at one focus; Newton's model of gravity (a force acting to pull all masses towards each other but decreasing in strength as the square of the distance between them) was able to predict the shape of those orbits and the change in speed of the planets as they traverse them.
These aren't arrogant statements; they are the result of asking for Nature's opinion and listening carefully and humbly for the response.
My comment refers only to your comment about the globe model of the Earth (which is itself only tangentially related to Biblical eschatology). I have little to contribute regarding interpretation of the Bible, though I certainly have my own opinions about it. We each have our areas of specialization.
It was a not-expanded-enough reference to ‘settled science’ and the idea that education, or academia should be the asking of questions of every orthodoxy.
So even if the Earth is a globe, the international icon for learning should be a great big question mark, eh?
Amen! When I worked at an observatory, I used to ask tour groups I was leading if they believed that the Earth went around the Sun, or the other way around; or sometimes, if the Earth is round or flat. They almost all said that, of course, the Earth is a sphere and travels around the Sun. I would then ask them, "How do you know that?" Almost no one had an answer; they believed it only because they had been told it was so, not because they had figured it out by thinking for themselves. It was always a humbling experience for me (and maybe for them; I dunno) to consider that although we may view ourselves as more advanced than we were a thousand years ago, we've mostly just replaced one unquestionable authority with another. Most of the scientists I know lapped up the covid nonsense without thinking or applying scientific reasoning to doubt the so-called authorities. It's embarrassing to call oneself a scientist at times.
Indeed, wasn’t it Sir Fred Hoyle, Britain’s Astronomer Royal in the 1970s, who said there is absolutely no way to tell whether we are geocentric or heliocentric, the maths works the same?
I also found that there are no proofs that Earth is in motion at all: Foucault’s pendulum is an obvious parlour trick (now done with electrical motors and brushes etc. if you want one for your university!) and stellar parallax is clearly not observation science but a simple sleight-of-hand deception like viruses and false flag terrorism.
The cosmological question, however fascinating though, is not as important as the ontological question, and the biggest one of all: what happens after we die?
Gravity doesn't pull "down", it pulls towards the center of the mass creating it. That's why most planets and stars are ball-shaped, if they formed when their material was (or is, in the case of gas giant planets and stars) soft enough to be shaped. The Earth, being a sphere about 6300km in diameter, has a slightly curved surface on our scale. The water resting on top of its rock surface has the same curvature. In our everyday life, our visual field is blocked by trees, buildings, hills, and so on, so we're not always able to perceive that slight curvature. Where I live, there are beaches where I can look out over a long stretch of water - long enough to see the curvature. One of the obvious things I can see is a large city in the distance, whose tall skyscrapers appear to jut out from the water, while the lower buildings and trees aren't visible.
Have you tried zooming in with a high powered telescope or camera? A lot of videos online show what you describe but then reveal the lower trees and buildings.
I've used binoculars. Light gets refracted by the air, meaning that it bends around curves. It makes things over the horizon visible even when their line-of-sight is below it. This effect is about half a degree, which is almost the same as the apparent diameter of the Sun and Moon, meaning that when the Sun and Moon appear to have just touched the horizon, they have already set!
To know for sure, the observer would have to do a careful calculation of the distance away from what they're looking and correct the geometric curvature for refraction. I'm about 30 miles from the city, so when correcting for refraction, objects lower than 24 feet above sea level should be obscured.
Since you are talking here about eclipses and believe we live in a solar system with a giant sun millions of miles away and a small moon orbiting us not so far away, can you please explain how it is that when we have an eclipse, both the sun and the moon appear exactly the same size in the sky such that they exactly cancel each other out? What are the chances of that happening, do you think, given the size difference of the two in the model you believe in? I would say, the chances are close to zero!
Another question for you. Since we can see that people themselves become weightless at high levels in our atmosphere such that there is no gravity there at those high levels, what is it that you think is holding the moon in place in orbit around us given it is supposed to have virtually no gravity itself? Is there a big long string or piece of rope we don't know about that is keeping it tethered to the earth instead of simply flying off into outer space?
Come on brother, learn to use your powers of observation correctly. The sun and the moon are not far away. They rotate around above us. The moon also self illuminates. There may also be a dark moon above us as well. And we are under a dome. Why do you think all the cathedrals have domes on the top of them? What about the Dome of the Rock? What's going on with the HOUSTON ASTRO DOME then do you think? They are telling you what it is we live in. Time to wake up to that!
The Sun being about 400 times larger than the Moon yet also 400 times further away is a remarkable coincidence, yes. It's not exactly the same value, though, and it's possible using the same Sun-centered model of the solar system to predict far in advance if an eclipse will be total (Moon fully covering the Sun) or annular (Moon too small in apparent size to cover the Sun, leaving a bright ring around the outside).
Your own model is unable to explain a wide variety of phenomena you regularly see; how much colder it gets at night than in the day, for example; how weather systems evolve in predictable ways; when, where, and why eclipses will occur; why there is a circular shadow crossing the Moon in a lunar eclipse; why lunar eclipses occur only at Full Moon; why the bright side of your self-illuminating Moon always points exactly towards the Sun; why things fall when you let go of them, and what keeps you in your chair as you type. Your model of the solar system is unable to predict the timing, location, or strength of any of those phenomena.
People appear to be weightless when in orbit not because there is no gravity, but because they are falling towards the Earth along the same curve as the Earth's curvature. You can find many videos of the Vomit Comet, an airplane ride which simulates weightlessness by flying in a parabolic arc so that the occupants fall at the same rate as the airplane they're inside of.
You are, of course, free to believe whatever model of reality you choose - though as it's been said many times, you can't avoid the consequences of believing in that model, if it's not a good one.
Ok, buddy. How can you explain seeing a half moon during the day at the same time as the sun is present in the sky, if the earth is a round ball? What is it that is blocking out half of the moon when that happens? If the sun is shining on it, you should still see the whole thing even though one side might be more feint than the other. Also, how can the moon, if it is a sphere, just reflect a perfect half to us like that, from sunlight it is supposedly being hit by?
The different things you mention are even more easily explained using a 24 hour cycle of the moon and sun moving around above us.
It gets cold at night, because the sun has moved to a different location above the earth. You see a shadow passing in front of the moon due to the dark moon that is up there that I spoke about.
Have you ever seen stars filmed through the telescopes? They look nothing like our sun and I would say certainly do not have planets orbiting around them at all.
It would be better to provide diagrams in reply to your comments; but I expect that you've seen those already and have rejected them, so probably not much benefit in providing links.
Are you able to predict how cold it will get at night? We can use the Stefan-Boltzmann law to calculate the radiative balance between incoming solar and outgoing infrared radiation, and get a good estimate of the local temperature curve as it evolves through the day. If you disagree with the heliocentric model of the solar system, you might as well disagree with the rest of what physics has learned.
I've worked in an observatory and seen many stars through telescopes. In fact, they look a great deal like the Sun as seen from far away. People have spent lifetimes looking at them and have categorized them into a pattern (the Hertzsprung-Russell diagram) based on their colour, size, and brightness.
Please, believe whatever you wish. I think it's great that you challenge authority, and agree that science has become as much a source of authoritarianism and evil as of good.
Thanks for your reply. Well we will all find out the truth one day I suppose. It is good you have worked in an observatory. I'm talking about the videos people have posted on YouTube of what they are seeing through their telescopes. Very different to our sun. Physics can be tailored to fit different models as you know. And not all physics is perfect. But anyway, we can leave it at that. There are still many unanswered questions I think. And it is good you stand up for what you believe in as well.
I've just returned from a walk with my dog, during which I was wondering about the dark moon you mentioned. We can see that such a dark moon has to be closer to the ground than both the Moon (in order to move in front of it during lunar eclipses) and the stars and planets (because we can observe stars and planets moving behind the Moon). So, it should be visible against the stars as it moves in front of them and blocks them out. Because we can't see this happening, your dark moon must be transparent to starlight and planet light but opaque to moonlight. That is a remarkable property and is difficult to explain.
The self-illuminating Moon makes it difficult to explain how the phases of the Moon work, and why craters (which you can observe even through a pair of binoculars if your eyes are good) are shadowed in the same way as if it's a bright external light doing the illuminating. It's much simpler to see how the phases and crater shadows might arise by, say, looking at an orange illuminated by a candle from different angles.
Thank you for this sane and sensible post. Means we can get real and keep fighting in the here and now!
Our beliefs are our cage - even those who have broken so many chains already.
Me, i'm ready to be wrong about anything at any moment, and happy to be, because it means i learned something and grew.
That's emancipation from mental slavery.
Peace :-)
👏 Bravo Patricia 👏
🎯 & Ditto
I don't want to have an argument with you here but not all "prophecies" have been fulfilled. Jesus said the meek will inherit the land. That hasnt happened yet. What about the reference to the Millenial Kingdom in Revelation where Christ rules for 1000 years in peace. That hasn't happened yet either. In Isaiah 32, it talks about The Kingdom of Righteousness. That hasn't happened either yet, as far as I am aware. There are a lot of problems with it all as far as I am concerned. For example, in Revelation, God says the people of the world will curse God because of these pestilences like plagues and sores on their bodies and famines etc. I believe it says the people of the world or the earth. Since it is Satan's people on earth who are causing these things to happen in our time now, and sores on their bodies for example could be yet to come from vaccines etc and diseases like marburg and ebola, and famine is surely on the way as well, are we to think that God and Satan are actually working together to do such harm to the people of the earth? We have to remember as well who compiled the holy bible and how they left so many other teachings of Christ and others out of it. Aren't the ones who did that, the enemies of God? We just have to keep fighting the good fight though brother. No matter what.
Peace to you!
You have not discussed one fact from the post.
Not even reinterpreted the scripture i quoted, but completely ignored every verse and every historical fact matching scripture exactly.
I'm not angry about that, but you should be.
Peace :-)
And you haven't responded to anything I have said either! Are you angry with yourself about that? Actually, I did point out that there are passages in Revelation where God says the people of the world (earth) will curse God because of these plagues and pestilences ... That is directed at your view that this is all over already and such things were only applicable to Jeruselem. The passages I am referring to refer to the people of the whole world. So in that way I have reinterpreted what you said! Peace!
Am I to infer from your statement, "The symbol of education across the world is the globe, but there are now many who have realised the impossibility of that model and its direct opposition to everything our senses tell us is true every single day of our lives" that you believe the Earth to be flat?
Your senses are also able to show you the shadow of the Earth rising opposite the sunset on any clear evening. They are able to observe the circular shadow of the Earth crossing the Moon during a lunar eclipse, the timing of which can be predicted with great accuracy centuries in advance, using a Sun-centered model of the Solar System. The same model can predict the exact timing of solar eclipses, when the Moon crosses in front of the Sun, far into the future. Where I live, I can see the towers of a distant city rising from the water, just as they should if the water's surface is slightly curved.
Astronomers making careful observations three hundred years ago were able to deduce that the orbits of the planets are ellipses with the Sun at one focus; Newton's model of gravity (a force acting to pull all masses towards each other but decreasing in strength as the square of the distance between them) was able to predict the shape of those orbits and the change in speed of the planets as they traverse them.
These aren't arrogant statements; they are the result of asking for Nature's opinion and listening carefully and humbly for the response.
This post is about Biblical eschatology. If you want to discuss that, let's have it ;-)
My comment refers only to your comment about the globe model of the Earth (which is itself only tangentially related to Biblical eschatology). I have little to contribute regarding interpretation of the Bible, though I certainly have my own opinions about it. We each have our areas of specialization.
It was a not-expanded-enough reference to ‘settled science’ and the idea that education, or academia should be the asking of questions of every orthodoxy.
So even if the Earth is a globe, the international icon for learning should be a great big question mark, eh?
Peace :-)
Amen! When I worked at an observatory, I used to ask tour groups I was leading if they believed that the Earth went around the Sun, or the other way around; or sometimes, if the Earth is round or flat. They almost all said that, of course, the Earth is a sphere and travels around the Sun. I would then ask them, "How do you know that?" Almost no one had an answer; they believed it only because they had been told it was so, not because they had figured it out by thinking for themselves. It was always a humbling experience for me (and maybe for them; I dunno) to consider that although we may view ourselves as more advanced than we were a thousand years ago, we've mostly just replaced one unquestionable authority with another. Most of the scientists I know lapped up the covid nonsense without thinking or applying scientific reasoning to doubt the so-called authorities. It's embarrassing to call oneself a scientist at times.
Indeed, wasn’t it Sir Fred Hoyle, Britain’s Astronomer Royal in the 1970s, who said there is absolutely no way to tell whether we are geocentric or heliocentric, the maths works the same?
I also found that there are no proofs that Earth is in motion at all: Foucault’s pendulum is an obvious parlour trick (now done with electrical motors and brushes etc. if you want one for your university!) and stellar parallax is clearly not observation science but a simple sleight-of-hand deception like viruses and false flag terrorism.
The cosmological question, however fascinating though, is not as important as the ontological question, and the biggest one of all: what happens after we die?
Peace :-)
How can the waters surface be curved?
Gravity doesn't pull "down", it pulls towards the center of the mass creating it. That's why most planets and stars are ball-shaped, if they formed when their material was (or is, in the case of gas giant planets and stars) soft enough to be shaped. The Earth, being a sphere about 6300km in diameter, has a slightly curved surface on our scale. The water resting on top of its rock surface has the same curvature. In our everyday life, our visual field is blocked by trees, buildings, hills, and so on, so we're not always able to perceive that slight curvature. Where I live, there are beaches where I can look out over a long stretch of water - long enough to see the curvature. One of the obvious things I can see is a large city in the distance, whose tall skyscrapers appear to jut out from the water, while the lower buildings and trees aren't visible.
Have you tried zooming in with a high powered telescope or camera? A lot of videos online show what you describe but then reveal the lower trees and buildings.
I've used binoculars. Light gets refracted by the air, meaning that it bends around curves. It makes things over the horizon visible even when their line-of-sight is below it. This effect is about half a degree, which is almost the same as the apparent diameter of the Sun and Moon, meaning that when the Sun and Moon appear to have just touched the horizon, they have already set!
To know for sure, the observer would have to do a careful calculation of the distance away from what they're looking and correct the geometric curvature for refraction. I'm about 30 miles from the city, so when correcting for refraction, objects lower than 24 feet above sea level should be obscured.
Since you are talking here about eclipses and believe we live in a solar system with a giant sun millions of miles away and a small moon orbiting us not so far away, can you please explain how it is that when we have an eclipse, both the sun and the moon appear exactly the same size in the sky such that they exactly cancel each other out? What are the chances of that happening, do you think, given the size difference of the two in the model you believe in? I would say, the chances are close to zero!
Another question for you. Since we can see that people themselves become weightless at high levels in our atmosphere such that there is no gravity there at those high levels, what is it that you think is holding the moon in place in orbit around us given it is supposed to have virtually no gravity itself? Is there a big long string or piece of rope we don't know about that is keeping it tethered to the earth instead of simply flying off into outer space?
Come on brother, learn to use your powers of observation correctly. The sun and the moon are not far away. They rotate around above us. The moon also self illuminates. There may also be a dark moon above us as well. And we are under a dome. Why do you think all the cathedrals have domes on the top of them? What about the Dome of the Rock? What's going on with the HOUSTON ASTRO DOME then do you think? They are telling you what it is we live in. Time to wake up to that!
The Sun being about 400 times larger than the Moon yet also 400 times further away is a remarkable coincidence, yes. It's not exactly the same value, though, and it's possible using the same Sun-centered model of the solar system to predict far in advance if an eclipse will be total (Moon fully covering the Sun) or annular (Moon too small in apparent size to cover the Sun, leaving a bright ring around the outside).
Your own model is unable to explain a wide variety of phenomena you regularly see; how much colder it gets at night than in the day, for example; how weather systems evolve in predictable ways; when, where, and why eclipses will occur; why there is a circular shadow crossing the Moon in a lunar eclipse; why lunar eclipses occur only at Full Moon; why the bright side of your self-illuminating Moon always points exactly towards the Sun; why things fall when you let go of them, and what keeps you in your chair as you type. Your model of the solar system is unable to predict the timing, location, or strength of any of those phenomena.
People appear to be weightless when in orbit not because there is no gravity, but because they are falling towards the Earth along the same curve as the Earth's curvature. You can find many videos of the Vomit Comet, an airplane ride which simulates weightlessness by flying in a parabolic arc so that the occupants fall at the same rate as the airplane they're inside of.
You are, of course, free to believe whatever model of reality you choose - though as it's been said many times, you can't avoid the consequences of believing in that model, if it's not a good one.
Ok, buddy. How can you explain seeing a half moon during the day at the same time as the sun is present in the sky, if the earth is a round ball? What is it that is blocking out half of the moon when that happens? If the sun is shining on it, you should still see the whole thing even though one side might be more feint than the other. Also, how can the moon, if it is a sphere, just reflect a perfect half to us like that, from sunlight it is supposedly being hit by?
The different things you mention are even more easily explained using a 24 hour cycle of the moon and sun moving around above us.
It gets cold at night, because the sun has moved to a different location above the earth. You see a shadow passing in front of the moon due to the dark moon that is up there that I spoke about.
Have you ever seen stars filmed through the telescopes? They look nothing like our sun and I would say certainly do not have planets orbiting around them at all.
It would be better to provide diagrams in reply to your comments; but I expect that you've seen those already and have rejected them, so probably not much benefit in providing links.
Are you able to predict how cold it will get at night? We can use the Stefan-Boltzmann law to calculate the radiative balance between incoming solar and outgoing infrared radiation, and get a good estimate of the local temperature curve as it evolves through the day. If you disagree with the heliocentric model of the solar system, you might as well disagree with the rest of what physics has learned.
I've worked in an observatory and seen many stars through telescopes. In fact, they look a great deal like the Sun as seen from far away. People have spent lifetimes looking at them and have categorized them into a pattern (the Hertzsprung-Russell diagram) based on their colour, size, and brightness.
Please, believe whatever you wish. I think it's great that you challenge authority, and agree that science has become as much a source of authoritarianism and evil as of good.
Thanks for your reply. Well we will all find out the truth one day I suppose. It is good you have worked in an observatory. I'm talking about the videos people have posted on YouTube of what they are seeing through their telescopes. Very different to our sun. Physics can be tailored to fit different models as you know. And not all physics is perfect. But anyway, we can leave it at that. There are still many unanswered questions I think. And it is good you stand up for what you believe in as well.
I've just returned from a walk with my dog, during which I was wondering about the dark moon you mentioned. We can see that such a dark moon has to be closer to the ground than both the Moon (in order to move in front of it during lunar eclipses) and the stars and planets (because we can observe stars and planets moving behind the Moon). So, it should be visible against the stars as it moves in front of them and blocks them out. Because we can't see this happening, your dark moon must be transparent to starlight and planet light but opaque to moonlight. That is a remarkable property and is difficult to explain.
The self-illuminating Moon makes it difficult to explain how the phases of the Moon work, and why craters (which you can observe even through a pair of binoculars if your eyes are good) are shadowed in the same way as if it's a bright external light doing the illuminating. It's much simpler to see how the phases and crater shadows might arise by, say, looking at an orange illuminated by a candle from different angles.
Oh well.
I am puzzled. If the Mark of the Beast in Revelation has already occurred, when did that happen? Did it happen when Jerusalem was under siege?